jesse
@ December 21, 2010


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SPOILER ALERT: I am going to talk about some of the crazy (?) shit that happens (?) in Black Swan. If you haven't seen the movie, then I will ruin things that happen for you by telling them so don't read this. Also, if you haven't seen the movie but were going to because you heard that Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis have a sex scene together, well, you are going to be disappointed.

SPOILER FORCEFIELD ACTIVATED

The movie is, at times, showing us what objectively occurs. At other times, we are seeing what is happening in the imagination or otherwise altered perception of Natalie Portman's ballerina, who is losing her precious marbles. None of these questions should be construed as me criticizing the movie: I thought it was an engrossing and intense experience and I loved it.

1) My biggest question is regarding her encounter with Winona Ryder's "old" ballerina at the hospital towards the end, when Ryder (sorry I can't remember any character names) grabs her nail file and starts stabbing herself in the face and screaming like a crazy person. Portman flees the room to the hospital elevator, where... she drops the nail file? She had it the whole time? And her hands are covered in blood? Right? This is what happens? I don't know if I trust my memory, because I had just watched somebody stab themselves all up in their own face, but I am pretty sure that's what happened. So... did Portman actually stab Ryder in the face, imagining that she is only doing it to herself? The next scene is her at home washing blood off her hands.

2) We know that Portman DOES go to the club with Mila Kunis, and that they do NOT go home together and have disappointing (from a nudity standpoint) sex together. But where is the reality/crazy line drawn over the course of the night? The cab ride probably didn't happen. But what else?

3) What the fuck, exactly, happens the night before the performance after she is rehearsing by herself?

4) What is up with the scratching??

5) The ending. What I think happens: after performing as the white swan, she goes to her dressing room, where she sees an imaginary version of Mila Kunis. Imaginary Mila threatens to take the role from her, so they fight, the mirror is broken, and Imaginary Mila gets stabbed to death with a shard of the mirror. Later, we find that Portman herself has been impaled with the mirror, but only succumbs to her wounds after finishing the performance. So, she breaks her own mirror and stabs herself in the stomach with it? And then goes out and continues dancing, and there's no blood that anybody notices until the end? Even when she's in a white leotard? When, exactly, did she get stabbed? And, finally: what?


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My reading is that the entire film is shown through Portman's subjective view -- there is no objective point of view, no omniscient kinoeye, to establish a firm narrative.

Did Portman kill Winona? From her point of view, no. Whether the entire incident was a schizophrenic episode or if Portman stabbed the fuck out of her is open to interpretation. At the end of the day, it is inconsequential to the film.

Question: Do you remember any scenes that Portman is not in? Were there any?

Based upon everything you've written here and the fact that I haven't seen the movie, Natalie Portman's character IS Mila Kunis's, right? Like the end of Fight Club? Except with girl dancers?

@Sam: That wasn't my read on the film. I walked away believing that Mila's character was real. Portman does go on a few hell rides where she hallucinates Kunis's presence, though.

Other characters interact with her, unlike Fight Club/Sixth Sense.

Mila's character is definitely real, but there are times when Natalie is imagining she is there.

I disagree that the film is always through Natalie Portman's subjective view. For example, consider the scene during the final performance when she actually transforms onstage into a black swan - the camera then changes to the audience's point of view, at which point she looks normal again. I would interpret this moment as one where we are seeing what's "real" (in quotes cause its a movie). There are other such moments.

I reject any argument that what happens in a movie that wants to be taken seriously is inconsequential, except that all such things are inconsequential in the grand scheme of the universe.

Good point on the swan transformation -- but it's the exception, not the rule, that we exit Portman's point of view.

As for the importance of the fate of Ryder's character, I need only point to the importance of the contents of the microfilm in North by Northwest. We know that the microfilm is important, yet, it is not at all important as to what is on it -- as Hitchcock would say, it's the MacGuffin.

Natalie may or may not have killed her. She may or may not have committed suicide. The blood on the knife may or may not be real. It's open to interpretation -- its only consequence is that it further reinforces that Portman is insane in the membrane. (my interpretation - Wesley Willis-level schizophrenia)

We do know that Ryder is also fucked in the head -- an older version of Portman (as Vincent Cassel lets us know -- "she probably did it on purpose").

I'd agree with Jim that there's no way to tell whether Portman killed Ryder, Ryder killed herself, or if the entire scene was a hallucination (the cuts to and from the hospital are incredibly abrupt even for this film).

The only other one I have a good answer for is 4. Dialogue with Portman's mother indicates that she's had a history with scratching as a stress relief mechanism (like cutting). So the idea that she's doing it uncontrollably and physically can't stop fits in with the rest of the body horror.

I think the film was just an artistic way of showing Nina break free of her fears and weaknesses. As for what was "real", what was in Ninas mind, and what was purely symbolic... thats really up for debate. I don't think you'll ever get concrete answers to those questions. but heres what i got out of it.

Early in the film Nina tells her teacher (Thomas) "I just want to be perfect" and the teacher responds by saying "being perfect isn't just about control, its about letting go".

Then later in the film the teacher points out how Lily may not be the best dancer, but she has no problem letting go. she dances "effortlessly". I think this is where Ninas envy and paranoia came from. Envious of Lilys ability to "let go" and paranoid that Thomas may ultimately choose Lily over her.

The white swan represents control and technical ability while the black swan represents the intangible qualities of confidence and "letting go".

Ninas death at the end, i think, was just the death of the white swan. Nina let go, she conquered her fears and she gained the confidence to become the black swan.

The film ends with her uttering the words "i was perfect, i was perfect" meaning she not only performed flawlessly, she did it with an enormous amount of confidence. she 'let go'.

ha i'm really just thinking out loud here, i just finished watching the movie about 20 minutes ago and I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.

I am thinking the death of Nina at the end was literal. There was never a reaction to Nina's hallucinations which helped realize that she was hallucinating. However, at the end, Thomas asked Nina "what did you do?" And people reacted to her bleeding on the mattress. That is where I was confused because I thought her stabbing herself was just symbolic of her killing that controlled part of herself and allowing herself to "let go"....but then she really had stabbed herself....my question is, if she stabbed herself, how did she make it through the Black Swan performance and into the final scene? She should have bled to death.

Sabrina, I believe she only started to profusly bleed after she played her black swan part and went back to the room and pulled out the glass shard. It is a known fact when stabbed, the first thing to do instictly is to pull out the object, but that is in fact on e of the worst things to do untill medical attention comes as often the object is at the time, plugging the hole.

As far as Nina saying she was perfect at teh end of teh movie I think is refering to the fact that the play itself is a story about a lady trapped in a swans body and ends in death, the play is explained mid way thru the movie, and thus Nina at the end of the play has committed suicide as concluded the play as flawlessly as possible by "completing" the plays story.

As far and Ryders character, I don't think there is enough information given to say one way or another wiether she did get stabbed or not, Its like Inception at the end, does the top fall over or doesn't it, I think its meant to be left unknown as to have the viewer fill it in with person thoughts on what happened and to come up with personal conclusions.

Also I'd like to add that I think when Nina is in the bar talking to the 2 young boys about being a dancer and doing the play of swan lake, she explains the story and teh tragic end of the young lady trapped in the swans body. I think this is foreshadowing, and I don't think one would use foreshadowing on a event that never happens (nina dying) and as such she does die at the end of the movie, or at least tries to

Just have watched the movie. Was so impressed and with many questions. Now I see I'm not the only one.

I do absolutely agree with this whole symbolism about the White and the Black Swan. And her inner struggle between them. However what my impressions were when I saw the movie is that this transformation was not only about "letting go" but about her self-destroying.
Because being the Black Swan means not only be able to "let it go/flow" with your inner wishes, your sexuality, drinking, losing control in different ways, it is about becoming evil. Able to do everything for your ego. Able to commit the crime, to hurt, being heartless... And it is what the price is.
And that is her drama. She was pure, unexperienced "white girl" but than she got under the pressure (It is not that somebody forced her, it was in certain way essential for her role) and started to transform into a Black one losing all her boundaries.
And while the idea was to be able to be both the White and the Black, she lost her White completely. Yes, she was a perfect White Swan at the end of the perfomance but then it died irretrievably.

I thought also about Mila's character. This girl is real. She is kind of naughty, stands to her nature. But it is difficult to say that she is a "Black" Swan. She felt guilty about Nina, came to her home, she was the only one who did care about her wishes so to say. Sometimes she looked like being such a "White" Swan. So it is difficult for me to say, if it like normal balanced personality is (having both of our parts) or that is exactly the ultimative way being "Black" and trying to get your goals by all means, ruthless, croocked pretending being good. Here is a space for guessing, how bad she really was. Finally we cannot even know if they really had sex or not. Lilly could have been lying saying "no". Good movie!

I do also think Nina was sick (too stressed trying to get the role, pushed by her mom, with eating disorder) and as a result hallucinating. And I can imagine that this incident with stabbing Beth didn't happen. At the beginning there is a scene in the lavatory (after announcing her being a new Black Swan) where she hurt herself on the finger. Aua! and ....aaaa horrible. But it was defenitely a hallutination. And her washing off the blood as well.

What about her final death -- no clue...My feeling like she died literaly BUT HOW did she get hurt? Somebody here wrote she stabbed herself before but well then she would has died already in the dressing room. I am so lost with it!

Well, so many words... So what do you people think?

At the end of the day, here's what I've decided.

I think the movie is vague enough that you can interpret the ending however you want.

Frankly, I think the easiest - and thus lamest - ending is if she really dies at the end. After all the tug of war, the drawn out imaginary angst, etc, it just seems a cop out to think she dies bleeding on the mattress surrounded by the company as the audience cheers.

To me, it's a much better ending if the end is metaphorical. It's about her giving in - or letting herself go - performing it perfectly by allowing her angst to work for her in the performance. Hence, the skittish white swan transforming to the evil, sexual dominant black swan then reverting back to the frightened, anguished white swan for the finale.

So I choose to see the ending as her laying there letting the self-induced hallucination play out . . . "bleeding" out knowing she gave the perfect performance.

For me that works. Otherwise, it just feels like a cop out and cheapens everything leading up to it.

And that's how Sue "Cs" it ;).

My friend and I were talking and he bought up a good point...because the movie is filled with symbolism, after Nina's disastrous first half performance, she struggles with "herself" Lily=herself; and stabs the white swan persona. In actuality Nina stabs herself and then precedes to imagine her transformation into the black swan, dancing with perfection, the love and accolades are only in her head. She never performed on stage after the first half, I know its a stretch but how else could she move about with a huge glass shard in her belly and danced in the white tutu and no one notice the blood. She was totally devastated after the fall. To go out and dance the Black Swan better than she'd ever done before under those conditions, doubtful, she had never perfected anything before; not even the white swan which everyone agreed she was perfect for. I think it was the Little Princess line from the director that backed this up. She imagined everyone going crazy over her performance;giving a kiss that "seduced" the director;Lily congratulations.I don't think her mom would've been there sitting in that perfect seat.. mom/daughter seeing each other thru the audience..and her mom so proud of her. She imagined dying after giving the perfect performance of a lifetime. I'm all about the underdog winning at all cost but because this is from Darren the ending was a little too pretty and perfect. So I'm sticking with this theory..she died in the dressing room.

Nina hallucinated most of the movie, beginning just after director man told her that she wouldn't make a good black swan. See A Beautiful Mind.

That! is an exelent point, A beautiful mind really does give us a reference to compare Black Swan with... it does make one wonder just how much was invented...

I do think it IS POSSIBLE that she DANCED as the black swan in the end. Haven't you heard of that guy that got stabbed in the head and didn't feel anything until he got home and someone told him he had a knife on the head?.

Besides,she beleive she killed Lily for real! So her mind never registered the wound. She was so high into the halucination that she just performed, besides we have been seeing her other self almost near the start of the movie itself. So I think she did perform as the black swan and did the awesome job, she was just so high into her halucination of being someone else, after all, she imagended herself capable of partying it out, having sex with strangers and lily, she might have just had her breaking point and actually acted it out. Lily's congratulations were real because that is WHEN she realises she has been halucinating.

And I do agree with she killing Lily that time being just the symbolism or the last straw to become the black side of the swan, being able to do ANYTHING, just like the swan did to keep the prince (and in this case, teh part). Great movie all in all. and then again, we might never know the truth.

Here is something nobody has said before in this thread. Lily didn't actually come to Nina's house. You see through Nina's perspective, the mom going to the door then quickly shutting it. Nina says who's there? The mom looks at her like she's crazy and says nobody. Nina hurries out the door to "see" Lily in the hallway. She starts talking to her, but then the mom comes out and asks what she's doing. Indicating the mom doesn't know why her daughter is just sitting in their hallway by herself. The mom comes back moments later and says come inside Nina dinners getting cold and Nina tells her she's leaving. Once again the mom is like, "why? you have a dance tomorrow?" The mom doesn't understand why out of the blue shes leaving. This to me indicates Lily was never there. So secondly Nina arrives back at the apartment "with Lily". Again I don't believe she is really there with her. The entire time the mom doesn't even glance at Lily, she only speaks and looks at Nina. Doesn't even say "did this friend of yours put you up to this?" So my final point, this is the most out there of my opinions on the film which mostly correlate with everything above. I believe something sexual happened with Nina and her mother. Hear me out now. Her mom is controlling and extremely obsessive, she dolls her up and also helps undress her. Her room is covered in portraits of her. It's clear that her mom is crazy, clearly no arguing that. So when Nina runs to her room and shuts the door and puts the piece of wood in place is where this theory come into play. Something sexual happened, Nina wakes up the next morning and the wood has been moved. Lily was never there, and her mom is out on the couch. The wood was moved by the mother as she left the room. Nina yells at her as she leaves the house "why didn't you wake me?" The mom just sits on the couch starring at the wall, as if something rather traumatic or regretful happened.

I do agree with Kelsey for the point that Lily is just her hallucination that night. Maybe Lily doesn't exist and is just the evil side of Nina after all. It maybe her hallucination. However I do not agree that her mum is crazy. I think what happened that night is Nina hallucinates having sex with Lily but she might be just only masturbating herself and imagine having sex with Lily. Her mum doesn't wake her up because she feels angry to Nina for quarreling with her. And she might think that Nina has changed after she became the swan queen. So she doesn't want her to go for training.

I do agree with Kelsey for the point that Lily is just her hallucination that night. Maybe Lily doesn't exist and is just the evil side of Nina after all. It maybe her hallucination. However I do not agree that her mum is crazy. I think what happened that night is Nina hallucinates having sex with Lily but she might be just only masturbating herself and imagine having sex with Lily. Her mum doesn't wake her up because she feels angry to Nina for quarreling with her. And she might think that Nina has changed after she became the swan queen. So she doesn't want her to go for training.

I also think that something sexual is going on between Nina and her mum. There is a scene in the movie where Nina is going to sleep and her mum apears at her room's door saying: "Are you ready for me?" I think this is an indication that Nina was sexually abused by her mother.

When Portman is alone she hallucinates (the sex, the stabbing of the face)but at the end everyone sees that she is bleeding. It makes sense because it is the only way she can be free so it is some sort of resolution for her character-just like in the ballet.

I dont think how she managed to dance the black swan with the stab wound is very important but just for the hell of it, we can say it was the adrenaline.

I read everyone's comment, and just got finished watching the movie. I was just shocked by the whole thing. Ballet is truly beautiful! wow I'm still like amazed. Anyways everyone's comment helped me understand the movie a lot more. She was Hallucinating and that's all I needed to know. lol Powerful movie!

Alright, so i think one piece of crucial information you guys are forgetting is that when she is late for practice and asks Mila's character why she didn't wake her up and why she left in the morning, Mila responds something like "not unless i was *name of guy at bar* and with a dick" So i think Portman's character thought that she had slept with Kunis but in fact slept with the man she met at the bar.

The whole movie is delirious, there are si many interpretations, and everyone has a different one.

In the end, it doesn't matter what really happened, because nobody knows.

I think Nina was not necesserily abused by her mother, but that her mother sees herself through her, as she quit ballet to have Nina, and we don't see or hear about Nina's father... The mother is over protective and pamperous, and it's probably because of her that Nina becomes so... delirious.

I thinkwe see the whole things trough Nina's vision, a feww glimpses of when she's "sane", others of when she's "crazy"...

The whole movie was unfixed, that's why everyone interprets it differently.

I believe that Nina was in fact being sexually assaulted by her mother. There was a gross lack of boundaries between Nina and her mother. It is something rarely shown on film(mother daughter hence when presented often not recognized.)

There was not a night of passion between Nina and the Mila Kunis character. The mother did not see anyone else out in the hall when she looked. Nina had a same sex attraction, which she could never live out being that she had no privacy, regarded herself as a woman child, and did not give herself permission for having a sex life.

The self-mutilaton began with the scratching and graduated to the suicidal finale. The self-hatred and body image issues resulted from the repressed sexuality.

In summary, Nina was sexually molested by her mother, hence she created an active fantasy life where the dance was her great escape. Her need for perfection was the child of her incestual genesis.

There had to be somthing going on with Nina and her mom, because when there was that sexual? part with Nina and Lily , right before it showed her putting that pillow in her face she said "Such a sweet girl" and In every other part her Mom said that. I think maybe she has trying to belive that it wasn't happening with her mom.

i just watched the movie, and it was amazing. i was confused about some things but sorted them out pretty quickly. one thing i couldn't really figure out was the end. did she literally die? after reading all of these previous comments I still don't know what I think about that. but i think that she literally died. that is my belief. so she was kind of set free in a way, from her crazy life i guess. but, I never considered that she was sexually abused by her mother. at first i thought it was a crazy idea, but now I believe that is what happened. also, with the woman who got hit by a car ( i forgot her name )... who knows? i think she stabbed herself because she was so depressed about her life. I think the depression came from not dying , because the car thing was attempted suicide in my opinion. she was disappointed that she survived, and now she is permanently injured.

I think Nina had some sort of mental problem that needed to be treated by doctors of some kind. if they would have sent her to an insane asylum, she might have become sane and the hallucinations would have gone away.

Amazing movie; I didn't get the sexual connection with her mom while watching it, but now it makes perfect sense and is the best explanation for many details which were puzzling. Remember that Lily's face changes twice during the sex scene; I think the other face we see briefly in that scene is a younger version of her mom. It's very quick, blink and you miss it. Then later on, when she returns home after the stabbing of Winona, she hallucinates Winona in the kitchen, but Winona now has the face of her younger mom. Again, blink and you miss it, but I think this is because it's really her mom in the kitchen.

The giveaway, in hindsight, is when she ends the sex scene by saying "sweet girl". The other clues mentioned by others above also make perfect sense. Of course, it's also possible that the sexual stuff with mom was itself a hallucination.....

the movie is somewhat based on the actual story of swan lake, so maybe looking up the story in more detail will help to answer questions.

also just wanted to point out that the audience saw nina as normal when she, in her mind, transformed into the black swan, but the shadow of herself in the background was her with the black swan wings.

nina continues to see herself in lily, or lily as her, also known as a doppelganger. a doppelganger is an evil version of yourself, and when you see it, it is an omen of your death.

When Nina kisses/bites the choreographer, isn't this a hallucination? Does she really go to his office all made up to ask for the part?

The whole movie was the dance none of it was real it was just the dance at least thats what i thought.

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damn... I'm still sorta confuse.. But what I think is that Lily wasn't a hallucination. When the doorbell rang Nina and her mother both heard it ringing, It wasn't like Nina tellin her mom go and check who'z at the door... But abt the incident that night... I donno I think it was either a boy she came home with or herself masturbating.
Even though it makes sense a lil bit; but I still don't think her mom was sexually assaulting her.

After she does her dance as the black swan, the audience sees her without the wings. But in the background, you can see the shadow with wings. So, of course, this could not be "reality" (i.e. - that she imagined that whole part : doing well in the dance, getting a standing ovation, etc.)

I am starting to think that the theory that she died in the dressing room makes the most sense.

I agree this movie was about mother daughter sexual abuse. When Natalie was masturbating in her room, Nina hallucinated her mother asleep in her room, which I believe reveals that her mother is somehow connected to her sexually.

Nina definitely stabbed Winona, thats why Nina is shown with the bloody nail file, theres no other reason for showing Nina with bloody hands and the file.
Many things are left to the imagination in this film but that isn't one of them.
I need to watch again tonight, my next suspicion is that Ninas Mom is not there at all, the dialog between them could easily be heard as dialog within Ninas own head. It is very common for the guilty part of the human conscience to take the form of a Mother as most all of our understanding of right and wrong comes from our Mothers.
And the way her Moms paintings were taunting her like a ghost from the past.

Nina's Mom is definitely there. Lily asks her in the bar what she is going to do, go back to mommy? Also, Nina' does stab herself at the end of the movie, and is not hallucinating. They call out to call an ambulance, and I think its Mr. Leroy? asks her what she has done. The movie was produced in collaboration with Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. Showing how people in entertainment are pushed to certain levels of perfection, and how dangerous it can be to be "perfect." There are tons of metaphors of course, but mostly just shows a woman, still living as a child, not fully mature, that is pushed over the edge to become perfect. She in turn does turn metaphorically into the black swan, become angry and violent at her situation. She would not have bled to death, because the glass was still in her stomach, she does not start to bleed out much until she removes the glass. Also, when she says I was perfect, she means the played to role perfectly. She completed every aspect of the ballet, which at the end of, the swan queen commits suicide. She also completes her role as Winona Ryder's character Beth, because she becomes his "little princess" at the end of the movie. I am a little bit confused on why she says she was perfect thought, because she fell onstage, and I have no idea what that was about.

1) If you looked closely, you would see that Beth's (Winona Ryder) face turns into Nina's face, so it looked like Nina was stabbing her own face. The dialog that follows combined with this stabbing shows the thoughts in the back of Nina's mind that she isn't perfect and that she is nothing.
2) Lilly probably followed Nina out of the club when she left when she asked where she was going, but instead of following Nina into the cab, they probably just said goodbye for the night.
3) The main villain of Swan Lake, the monster (I forgot his name) that casts the spell that turns the girl into a swan, is having sex with Lilly. Not sure what significance this has, other than to show Lilly has black swan-like characteristics and is very seductive.
4) Scratching is an OCD thing people to do themselves to curb stress, almost like cutting yourself. This shows that she was messed up from the beginning.
5) When Nina fights "Lilly" in the dressing room, she is really fighting herself. The whole movie she can't come to terms with the fact that Lilly simply IS the black swan and she will never be like her. When she stabs Lilly with the mirror shard, she's really stabbing herself, because by this point in the movie with all the rehearsing, she has become the black swan herself. She's reached her goal of being the black swan. So when she stabs "Lilly" the black swan, she is stabbing herself really because she is the true black swan.

1) If you looked closely, you would see that Beth's (Winona Ryder) face turns into Nina's face, so it looked like Nina was stabbing her own face. The dialog that follows combined with this stabbing shows the thoughts in the back of Nina's mind that she isn't perfect and that she is nothing.
2) Lilly probably followed Nina out of the club when she left when she asked where she was going, but instead of following Nina into the cab, they probably just said goodbye for the night.
3) The main villain of Swan Lake, the monster (I forgot his name) that casts the spell that turns the girl into a swan, is having sex with Lilly. Not sure what significance this has, other than to show Lilly has black swan-like characteristics and is very seductive.
4) Scratching is an OCD thing people to do themselves to curb stress, almost like cutting yourself. This shows that she was messed up from the beginning.
5) When Nina fights "Lilly" in the dressing room, she is really fighting herself. The whole movie she can't come to terms with the fact that Lilly simply IS the black swan and she will never be like her. When she stabs Lilly with the mirror shard, she's really stabbing herself, because by this point in the movie with all the rehearsing, she has become the black swan herself. She's reached her goal of being the black swan. So when she stabs "Lilly" the black swan, she is stabbing herself really because she is the true black swan.

1-Actually the guy that was kissing lilly was the prince not the monster. That was showing lilly is seductive. what nina cant be and i think the fight inside the dressing room was caused from seeing that. That's the point she really becomes black swan by hurting Herself (her White side). Though im not sure yet if it was just another hallucination or not.
2-That night lilly Did come to nina's house and they actually went to the club. cuz the next day they had the conversation about last night. I think lilly was just trying to prevent nina from rehearsal.
3-I totally disagree with nina having sex with her mom. cuz as you see she masturbates herself just after The guy asks him. it means she just doesn't have a successful sexlife that actually her mother caused it. And it that scene you see her mother worrying about her has slept on the chair taking care of her.
After all nothing is for sure. they just want us to choose the end. That's why they made it this way.

1-Actually the guy that was kissing lilly was the prince not the monster. That was showing lilly is seductive. what nina cant be and i think the fight inside the dressing room was caused from seeing that. That's the point she really becomes black swan by hurting Herself (her White side). Though im not sure yet if it was just another hallucination or not.
2-That night lilly Did come to nina's house and they actually went to the club. cuz the next day they had the conversation about last night. I think lilly was just trying to prevent nina from rehearsal.
3-I totally disagree with nina having sex with her mom. cuz as you see she masturbates herself just after The guy asks him. it means she just doesn't have a successful sexlife that actually her mother caused it. And it that scene you see her mother worrying about her has slept on the chair taking care of her.
After all nothing is for sure. they just want us to choose the end. That's why they made it this way.

OF COURSE lilly was real. i feel bad for you if you cant figure that out haha jeez

and yes, she was sexually abused by her mom.
her mom also completely controls her life. even the cameras look down on nine, and up at her mom during their scenes together.
creepy ass mom.... not good...

im still not sure if she died at the end. im 80% sure she did die since all the events and signs lead to it.

Jessica Millington @ May 19, 2011 3:15 AM

Okay I know the director! Nina died, Nina stabbed Beth, Lily was real, Nina scratched herself on her shoulder blades because it sometimes feels like wings on her back, which to Nina is quite irritating, also she was NOT sexually abused by her Mum. She is so over. Protected because Nina is the dancer she never go to be bE because she was
Pregnant with Nina at 28! Does that answer all your questions?

Okay I know the director! Nina died, Nina stabbed Beth, Lily was real, Nina scratched herself on her shoulder blades because it sometimes feels like wings on her back, which to Nina is quite irritating, also she was NOT sexually abused by her Mum. She is so over. Protected because Nina is the dancer she never go to be bE because she was
Pregnant with Nina at 28! Does that answer all your questions?

I didn't see the following mentioned in this thread... Nina DID go out with Lily that night. The waiter and two men they met were having conversations with both the girls. I think that part is obvious. They also have that conversation in the morning. However, Lily did NOT go home with Nina. When they get in the house, Lily "slips away" into the hallway and the mother never acknowledges her. Then in the morning, Lily notices that the wooden stake is still keeping her door shut. Thus, no one could have actually slept in her room and left before she woke up.

I don't believe any incestuous history is implied. To me, her mother is just extremely overbearing and treats her like a child. The boundaries that her mom completely lacks when dealing with Nina is similar to the same relationship of a mom and her 4 year old child.

I didn't see the following mentioned in this thread... Nina DID go out with Lily that night. The waiter and two men they met were having conversations with both the girls. They also have that conversation in the morning. However, Lily did NOT go home with Nina. When they get in the house, Lily "slips away" into the hallway and the mother never acknowledges her. Then in the morning, Nina notices that the wooden stake is still keeping her door shut. Thus, no one could have actually slept in her room and left before she woke up.

I don't believe any incestuous history is implied. To me, her mother is just extremely overbearing and treats her like a child. The boundaries that her mom completely lacks when dealing with Nina is similar to the relationship of a mom and her 4 year old child would have.

I didn't see the following mentioned in this thread... Nina DID go out with Lily that night. The waiter and two men they met were having conversations with both the girls. They also have that conversation in the morning. However, Lily did NOT go home with Nina. When they get in the house, Lily "slips away" into the hallway and the mother never acknowledges her. Then in the morning, Nina notices that the wooden stake is still keeping her door shut. Thus, no one could have actually slept in her room and left before she woke up.

I don't believe any incestuous history is implied. To me, her mother is just extremely overbearing and treats her like a child. The boundaries that her mom completely lacks when dealing with Nina is similar to the relationship of a mom and her 4 year old child would have.

Ok, for those of you who can't figure out that all the characters were REAL, you need to go watch the movie again. That's ridiculous. EVERY CHARACTER IS REAL, it's just that at times that particular character is not with Nina at the moment she thinks he or she is.
Ok, next. Let's see. Beth- I can't say I'm entirely sure, but I believe that the hospital scene where we see Beth stabbing herself was a hallucination. As someone above said, the scene cuts just before the hospital scene and after were rather abrupt. Also, the items that she stole from Beth were symbolic of her new position in the company, her part as the Swan Queen, and most of all her desire to be perfect "like Beth". Offering them to "Beth" in a plea for help seems more of a mental symbolic gesture. I don't think she would have actually given them back. AND the rest of the company, especially Thomas, would have been told of Beth's death which I believe would have been a murder since Nina realized in the elevator that she was holding the nail file and dropped it. If it was real and Nina dropped the file in the elevator then during the investigation the object Beth might have used to commit "suicide" would be nowhere to be found making that object a murder weapon. It certainly would have gotten around that Beth had been murdered. AND when Nina gets home and is washing her hands I didn't see any actual blood.

So, next the club scene. Well, hang on, before that Lily goes to Nina's house to see her. THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Both Nina and her mother heard the door and her mother went to the door on her own and was talking to someone after we hear Lily's voice asking for Nina. Nina's mother also pokes her head out the door at precisely the right times- whenever Lily asks Nina to go somewhere.

Ok, now the club scene. The entire club scene actually happens. There is a moment while she's dancing that seemed off, but that was just the drugs. I believe where the reality ends and the hallucination begins is when Lily pokes her head out of the club door and asks Nina where she was going. Here's why: It was kinda random. Sure, they were there together, but Nina was just making out with some guy. She and Lily weren't together at that moment and if you've ever been clubbing, it's freakin impossible to see the people you came with just walking through the crowd. There's no way Lily could have looked up from wherever she was in the club and said "Hey look! There's Nina about 50 yards away. The intense strobe lights, the fact that I'm totally high and drunk and probably have my tongue shoved down a guy's throat, and the fact that her silhouette looks like every other female in here makes her specific identity totally obvious. I'd better go check on her." Nope, I think she leaves the club alone.

Of course, the rest of the night is mostly hallucination. I'll get to the bedroom scene in a moment. I want to address Nina's relationship with her mom first from the beginning.

Ok, first I think there are three theories. Theory number 1: Parents of talented people (like the bitchy parents of figure skaters we have seen in movies and the bitchier parents of musician kids) are, well, bitchy. They are over protective and unreasonably strict. That could be much of Nina's mom's problem. Theory number 2: There is a point in the movie where Nina's mom screams at her "You're sick". I believe it's possible that Nina's mom knew that Nina had a mental problem and that's why she insisted on being so controlling over Nina. Now Theory number 3: Many people will swear forever that this is not the case, but I'm sorry, I just really believe it is. Nina's mom was molesting her. Some chick above me said she knew the director and he said that this wasn't the case. Whatever. This is the internet. Maybe it's true and she does know him, sorry I tend to think it's not. Anyway, Nina's molestation theory. The first thing I thought was bizarre was when (let's just call her Barb (actress name) because I don't remember the character name) Barb made Nina lick the icing off her finger..Ew..and too weird..fairly sexual considering everything else. She insists on undressing Nina..Ech..again, too weird. There's a part in the movie where Nina takes out the trash and then takes a pole or stick of some kind and runs into her room with it. She wants to keep her mom out. Why? Is it because Nina's a big girl and feels she's entitled to some privacy? Or maybe it's because just after hiding the stick under the bed her mom calls out "Nina, are you ready for me?" and then walks into the room in what looks more like lingerie? As the movie progresses Nina begins to become more assertive and defiant. When she and Barb are sitting fixing shoes Barb asks about the scratching and demands that Nina take her shirt off so she can see. Nina refuses in a much more forceful way than she has ever spoken to her mother in the rest of the movie prior to this scene. The way Barb demands that second time is also fairly strange. Something in her voice didn't seem right. Also, I don't know about you, but when I was young and got hurt on my back or had a rash or something my mom would just lift the back of my shirt up and have me hold it there until she finished applying medication or something. Why does Barb insist that Nina take her shirt off? Oh yeah and then there's the billions of pictures of Nina (a common trait in stalkers and molesters) and the fact that her mother is heard sobbing from time to time (out of guilt?).

Ok, now for the bedroom scene. There are two theories that I have. The first is that Nina was alone. The name "Sweet girl" was symbolic of Nina's innocence and apparent inability to act the part of the black swan. That symbolic name was one of the many obstacles she had to overcome, so it didn't really matter that it was only her mom who ever called her that. Her mother was fairly oppressive so the name could have just been symbolic of Nina's inability to be free of her innocence and "weakness" as Thomas called it and her mom was a big reason why Nina was kept so "weak". The second theory is what I tend to agree with more. Again, I know many people will disagree with me, but I believe that Nina's mom WAS there with Nina that night. When Nina went into her room after coming back from the club she was seen putting that stick in front of the door again. In the morning, the sheets were on the floor. The room looked like it might have if someone slept over. Someone above me said that Nina walked to the door and had to move the stick which meant that she was alone...I don't know what version of the movie that guy watched but it wasn't the one in the theatres or on DVD. Nina clearly charged to the door and threw it open, upset that she was late so then there are two options. Either she hallucinated putting it there in the first place, or someone was in the room with her and moved it when SHE woke up. We then see Barb sitting on the couch looking incredibly somber. This could have been because she and Nina had quite the falling out the night before OR it could be because Barb knew that she took advantage of her daughter while she was drugged and drunk and actually felt guilty. So, again, not ENTIRELY sure about everything, but I do think that Barb was molesting Nina.

Ok, the night Nina ended up rehearsing alone. Someone above me said that the guy Lily was with was the prince? Funny cuz it looked a hell of a lot like Thomas to me and then he suddenly he changed into the monster guy. But if that scene was real then they both saw Nina and would they not have confronted her about it? Someone would have gone after her that night or at least would have brought it up or acted strange the next day. No, that must have been a hallucination. Remember, she's a paranoid schizophrenic and that scene right there sums up half of her paranoia.
The scratching is part of her condition. Like someone said, scratching is sort of like cutting except that scratching is often done subconsciously and mostly unwillingly but Nina also does it because it feels like something is IN her shoulder blade or COMING OUT of her shoulder blades. Blech! I might be tempted to scratch too, but it was part of her hallucination. The scratching was real, but the cause was hallucinated of course.

Nina stabs herself in the dressing room when she thinks she stabs Lily. Since she thinks she stabbed Lily, she's unaware of her own injury. To her, it didn't happen. Let's remember, she's mental and like someone above said, the shard is still inside her keeping blood from flowing. Someone else above also mentioned adrenaline. That's gotta be true too combined with the fact that it's mostly her dark counterpart that dances the Black Swan in the first place. So then she goes back in the dressing room and pulls out the shard. She DOES start bleeding more. We can see her start to lose blood but that costume of hers is a bit thick so probably absorbs some of the blood before it starts spreading out, and again, adrenaline and mental stamina keep her dancing. Then...SHE DIES!!!! I don't know how some of you formed this theory that she didn't really die, but guys, you've gotta face it, SHE'S DEAD. She fell back on the matress, lost the rest of her blood while Thomas asked her what she had done, everyone in the company who goes to congratulate her freaks out, and Thomas demands an ambulance while the audience is still cheering. That's a fairly classic death scene. Hell, anyone seen Moulin Rouge? One of my favorite movies ever (don't really know why) and has a similar ending. It's certainly not the only movie with a similar ending. Whoever above me said that it was just too unrealistic...umm HELLO!! It's a movie!! All of the dancing DID happen and whoever said she wouldn't have gotten a standing ovation? Um no YOU wouldn't have gotten a standing ovation lol. Of course she got a standing ovation BECAUSE SHE WAS THE PRIMA BALLERINA IN A FAMOUS BALLET! If you were to go see Swan Lake performed, you had better get your ass out of that seat at the end of the ballet and applaud the Swan Queen. The whole point of her role in the company in this movie was for her to improve her performance to be the perfect Swan Queen so whoever said that she couldn't have been that perfect and all the other crap that followed in that comment, the ghost of Nina thanks you for your compliment and Mr. Aronofsky asks you to go and watch the movie again and pay attention this time. Actually I feel that MANY of the people who commented could do to watch the movie again once or twice.

lol well, there's no reason to get hostile about it. Y'all surprised me so much with your interpretations I had to go back and watch the movie a second time to make sure I understood it (the way I understand it :P ) And guys, I hate to tell you, you are reading WAYYYYYYY too much into it that isn't there. The movie itself tells you exactly what is going on.

Let me start with Lily. And this one was obvious to me the first time. Lily is probably the ONLY character in the entire movie... who doesn't actually exist. Remember, the movie bills ITSELF as a psychological thriller, so you have to look at it in a psychological kind of way... Lily is the dark, "Black Swan" version of NINA... she is nina's mirror self. Very likely the ONLY time we see the real person of Lily is in the very beginning of the movie, on the subway.... Nina spots this girl with her hair in a bun, pats her own bun... and then that girl GETS OFF AT A DIFFERENT STOP. Clue #1... she didn't get off at the wrong stop. She was never going to the ballet in the first place.

Anyway, didn't anyone notice that Lily is ALWAYS wearing black, while Nina is ALWAYS wearing white? Did anyone see the 6th sense? In that film, they used the color red as the visual clue as to what's really taking place (no spoilers for those who haven't seen it.... how could you have not seen it by now????). This movie, it's all about the white & black swan. The ONLY time Nina is not wearing white? Is at the club scene, where she "puts on" Lily's black shirt... and at the end of the film, when she IS the black swan.

Anyway, this might be a long post.

It is possible that Lily is a new dancer in the ballet... but perhaps the only time we actually hear her speak, or even see HER, is with the gasp at the end. The rest of it? Is all in Nina's mind. How do I know that? because the ONLY time anyone ELSE in the movie sees Nina and Lily together? Is when there's a mirror in the room. And that becomes very obvious (though you have to be paying attention, it's FAST) when they return from the club, and Nina & her mother have an exchange... and then Nina grabs Lily's hand and pulls her into her room. That entire event is seen in the mirror... it actually looks like Nina PULLS Lily out of that mirror. So kudos to the folks who said, Lily may not actually be in the hallway. Another hint: Lily suddenly shows up at EXACTLY the very first time Nina snaps at her mother, to ring the doorbell. Even in the bar, Nina is watching "Lily" talking to Tom & Jerry from behind that frosted glass. Tom invites Nina over, not Lily. Further, when Nina gets home to Mommy... she TELLS us: I ****** them both. And then the next day Lily says she didn't spend the night, she was with Tom. Nina was telling her mother the truth. There was no Lily... it's all Nina.

Okay. If you still aren't convinced, the only time we see Nina & Lily OUTSIDE of a mirror, is when Nina is alone. The cigarette scene. Lily comes walking in with a smoke in her mouth... except Nina is the one smoking. Someone mentioned a Beautiful Mind: remember the roommate? How he conveniently appeared? Lily is exactly the same thing. Every scene with Lily in it, it's Nina's alter-ego, including when she bursts in late to Nina's audition and "messes" Nina up (again, newbies can't pull that kind of stuff). And whenever Nina realizes she's doing it, not someone else, she is looking in the mirror or is alone and we flash to her alter-self. Sex scene is the same thing. And yes, Lily-the-alter-ego is trying to kill off the "sweet girl" of Nina, the PERFECT (which we are told over and over) white swan. She dreams about being the white swan, she ACTS like the perfect white swan... fragile and delicate and sweet. Her music box plays Thcaikovsky's "Dance of the Swans" which she sleeps to every night. And here walks in a newbie to the dance troupe, who also happens to be so obsessed with Swan Lake she has black swan wings tattooed on her back? LOL where did you guys get all that other stuff?

I promise you, no newbie comes in to an established ballet and is allowed to even TRY OUT for the premier ballerina position. WHO IS NINA'S RIVAL? It's that other girl.... was her name veronica? nina is always staring at her? Obsessed with her? (will get to Winona Ryder in a minute)... THAT would be the alternative for the lead.... not Lily. But then Nina beats out the other girl and lands the spot.... suddenly Lily becomes the threat, NOT veronica, and the boss (forgot his name) even states it (in many ways): The only thing standing in your way, IS YOU.

LOL I could go on and on, but really the movie TELLS you the truth, aronofsky is not cheating us (like I said, after reading all this I had to go back and watch again to make sure he didn't... and he didn't). Lily is everything Nina can't be, she is Nina's mirror-image, evil twin, black swan self... and she is not real. I think the only time we see the person who Nina invented as Lily, is the girl in the bun who stepped off the subway. Otherwise, I doubt she's even in the dance troupe, although it doesn't really matter if she is...if she is, she's nobody, she's part of the corps, and that's it. Nina's struggle is to become one with her alter-ego, and she literally does... she ends up with a piece of the mirror INSIDE HER BELLY in order to dance as the black swan, which she, for the first time, hits perfectly. And she has to take the mirror out to finish as the white swan. It's all symbolism (and so no, she didn't die in the dressing room.... she bled to death on the mattress after completing each role to perfection for her sacrifice).

WHich brings me to a quickie (had to say it) about nina's mom. What, the sex scene wasn't enough so people had to invent one that wasn't even in the movie at all? The mom is over-protective, and that's it. SHE SLEEPS IN THE CHAIR in Nina's room. Every time Nina sees her, that's where she is. Not in the bed (in fact, in the beginning, before Nina begins to rebel, we see Nina waking up peacefully more than once, all alone in her bed, lying on her back so not to get wrinkles on her face, no messed up sheets, nothing. The mom is sleeping in the chair, even at the opening scene... Nina wakes up, and we hear receding footsteps (Nina made it through the night, and mom can go about her day now).

So. We are also told Nina has had a pysch problem before and her mom knows it. That is why she sleeps in the chair, why she inspects nina's skin, etc. In fact, when Nina comes back from the club, she admits that she's drunk.... but her mom asks her what else she's taken, and won't accept any BS answer. SHE KNOWS Nina has done drugs before. And like I said, Lily doesn't exist... so the drugs were Nina's (just like the cigarette). How y'all got incest from that, I will never figure out. At the worst, the mom is living her life through her daughter (which is typical for entertainers). SHe tells Nina not to make the same mistakes she did (and Nina says "Thanks" ie, that's where the dad is! Nina's mom got pregnant out of wedlock (probably with HER director) and it ended her career... NINA is the mistake). The mom gives back handed comments (you deserve the part, you've been there long enough... in other words, you're old) and believes in playing it safe (don't lie, it probably won't do any good... its okay, he might let you play a big swan!... This part is ruining you!.... etc etc etc)... and therefore never left the corps herself. That's all I'm going to say about the mom. LOL people, calm down!

Finally, Winona Ryder. Did anyone notice, when nina goes to return Ryder's things, the hospital is entirely empty? Even though we've already seen in a previous scene, it's a typical hospital, there's people everywhere, and Nina got interrupted after just a few minutes? In other words, the stabbing scene didn't happen... Hospitals are never empty. Ryder was nina's idol... and Nina says it more than once: I want to be her. Well, psychologically, she can't be Beth until Beth no longer exists. So she "mentally" kills her off.

Anwyway, that's pretty much it. Thank you all for the entertaining twists... I did enjoy them, and obviously the movie is very well done to spark so much debate. So my answers are:

1) No, she did not kill Winona Ryder. That scene was all in her imagination. As for the washing hands part, we know Nina is OCD.

2)Nina goes to the Club. Lily doesn't exist. So the reality/crazy line is actually drawn before "Lily" even knocks on the door.

3)the night of the performance, the piano player leavse and the lights get turned off. Nina is left by herself, with a mirror. And as already stated, when Nina and mirrors are alone together, she tends to get scared as the flashes are telling her, she's seeing herself.

4) Scratching: Nina has OCD, among other problems. It isn't just the scratching, it's the constant washing of hands. It's the bulemia, the perfectionism, etc. All of those disorders are caused by a feeling of a lack of control, btw (which we know she DEFINITELY has a problem with, as her mother runs her entire life, including what career she chose). Anyway in Nina's mind, the scratching is the black swan in her trying to come out.

5) nina stabbed herself before she danced the black swan. . she united with her mirror-self. And then she realized it, pulled out the shard, and subsequently went on to dance the white swan.... and bled to death doing it. As she says, IT (not *I*) (sorry am hearing impaired, I need captions... she says IT) IT was perfect. She literally lived the dance, just as she was told to by the director she's in lust with. The White Swan kills herself. And so did the girl playing her.

Hope you guys enjoyed my take on it :)

lily has to be real... she told the director how nina was crying in the room, how else would he know about that?

Nina's mother was crying so its not impossible that she may have molested Nina. It's a very interesting movie. I say the scene with beth was all in her head, the cops would've otherwise have banged down her door so it's clear that it must've been an hallucination. Lily did exist, and there are scenes within the movie itself which prove it (Lily told thomas about Nina freaking out and looking overworked.). Nina's death at the end of the film does not necessarily mean that she died although it is implied. My overall conclusion is that if you become too obsessed by something, you might end up losing yourself as a person. The movie leaves much to be discussed cause nina's death could've been simply hallucinated seeing that majority of the film she was hallucinating. But seeing as she hallucinated killing lily i highly doubt that there would be a hallucination within an hallucination. It's a tricky movie but it's clever cause there's no solid conclusion. there's no knowing what was actually real or not

I'll try to answer your questions...

1.) I have no idea who stabbed beth as well...

2.)Nina didn't go home with Lily, the cab ride didn't happen..so probably you draw the line when Nina went out of the club and Lily followed her outside,they must have said goodbyes but Nina hallucinated that Lily followed her into the cab.

3.)I forgot that scene

4.)Maybe it's just a habit,a crazy one

5.)She got stabbed when she was fighting imaginary Lily, she taught she stabbed Lily but really she stabbed herself. As for the bleeding,Nina didn't take the glass off her stomach before dancing for Black Swan,so that stopped the bleeding for a while because when stabbed, the first reaction would be to take off the glass or something,but really you shouldn't,you should go to doctor first to keep from bleeding fast..and as you can see,she did not know she got stabbed so she didn't realize the pain..Also people noticed the blood in the end,when she removed the glass and it finally led to fast bleeding.

OKAY. So..
1. In the hospital scene with Beth, in my opinion Beth actually DID kill herself. Before this scene Beth has had problems with her decreasing popularity and practically being replaced so it makes sense, especially if the part Thomas said about Beth purposefully getting herself hit by a car is true. In my opinion Beth did stab herself and Nina hallucinated the file and the blood. In her mind she is probably blaming herself for causing Beth to kill herself. Her last attempt at help disappeared, and that caused her to panic. Having the file in the elevator with the blood is her mind (subconscious or whatever) putting the blame on Nina for causing Beth to kill herself. And Nina washing her hands at her house is like trying to wash the guilt away, like how Lady Macbeth did in Macbeth when she was trying to wash the "blood" (blood=guilt) off her hands. It makes perfect sense.

2. Lilly IS real, Lilly DID go to Ninas house and ask for Nina, because we can hear Lilly ask if Nina is there. I think the club scene happened, but the confusing thing is that if you watch closely while the strobe lights are going on, what first happens is Nina is dancing with a guy (probably the dude she was talking with earlier). They start kissing, then suddenly the guy disappears (or leaves suddenly). Nina stands there looking confused (we see a flash of the black swan version of Nina with makeup and everything), then Lilly calls to Nina and they start dancing together. Then after a little dancing you can see them start to kiss. Unless Nina was hallucinating about that too as well with the sex scene then i'm confused with that. But overall i agree that Nina hallucinated the sex scene, and NOOO her mother does not sexually abuse her.

3. I'm a little confused with that scene, but i think that Nina hallucinated that Lilly and Thomas were going at it. In the rehearsal scene where Thomas and Nina make eye contact and then Thomas breaks it to look at Lilly, you can see Nina panic, and her subconscious took it ahead of her with the idea of Thomas picking Lilly over her when she hallucinated. A VERY important part of this scene is when Nina is standing there staring and Thomas and Lilly, you see right beforeThomas turns into Rothbart (the monster who cast the spell on the girl in the beginning of Swan Lake) Lilly's face suddenly transforms into Ninas. My interpretation of this is that Nina's subconscious is telling her "You should be that right now" "You should be acting like the Black Swan" "You shouldnt be playing it safe and sweet like you are" And Nina runs away from that. (literally and figuratively :)

4. (It's pretty simple to get, lots of people put the correct answer to that above so i wont waste my time typing about it)

5. I agree with the opinion that Nina stabbed herself. The stabbing part was the final barrier that Nina broke to become the Black Swan that Nina was avoiding to become the whole movie. She was too timid to cross that line until then. Right before Nina stabs "Lilly"(aka Nina) you see Nina's neck elongates unnaturally (like a swans) and after Nina stabs her her eyes are red like a black swans, in which the neck and the eyes symbolize Nina finally becoming the Black Swan. I also agree with the point of view that in Nina's head, she stabbed Lilly, not herself, so her mind didn't register she was stabbed and that she should be feeling pain. When Nina answers the door and sees Lilly, and when she goes into the bathroom and doesn't see any blood or a body there, thats when Nina finally realizes that she didn't stab Lilly, she stabbed herself. And thats when the body and mind's "natural instinct" kicks in and she removes the shard from herself. When Nina is crying in the mirror then wipes the tears away, then looking unafraid, doesn't it sound familiar to the Swan Lake story? Nina was crying, and knew that this was the end. In the story the White Swan was devastated that the prince fell for the wrong girl, and only knew one way to end the pain. After Nina puts the makeup on she looks unafraid in the mirror (she even smiles a little), like she knows what will happen. The White Swan wasn't afraid to die in the end also, to find freedom. When Nina is standing on the stage and looking at Rothbart, then the prince, then lastly the audience, she looks ready to cry, as if she may have second thought or regrets. When she actually jumps, the look on her face while she is slowly falling is again that unafraid look. She DID die or at least was stabbed because Thomas and Lilly noticed it. When Thomas is asking "What did you do?" Nina tells him that it was perfect. Nina lived out the Swan Lake play in her own life, and she did the play perfectly, and since she achieved perfection(was able to become the black swan) she has no regrets. The whole point of the movie is Nina becoming the Black Swan, and now that she did, she can die peacefully, finding freedom.

I definitely need to think more in that area and find out what i can do over it.

Hi all!
Just watched the movie again bearing in mind what Grace, a.y, and nia posted. Everything made sense but there has to be a connection with reality, music and blood.
If you pay particular attention to blood in the movie, that gives us a hint as to which is real or not. When there is blood there is the halluciation process,I believe.
I still can`t figure out the ending though. The stabbing of lily happens just before she goes to the the Black swan part so she must have known about the shard when changing costumes....
Lots of food for thoughs here.
Even Natalie Portman seems uncertain of lily`s fate as she mentioned in a interview that she doesn` think nina dies at the end.
andre

Another hint that Nina was or is being molested is that she keeps asking for forgiveness. Even Thomas tells her at some point to stop apologizing. Feeling guilty about everything that goes wrong is typical for victims of any kind of abuse.

I am, as others, a little confused after just watching it. If Lily didn't exist, then how is it she is in scenecs with other people dancing? I think Nina's mind created her to be something more than she was .... yes, I see the dueality of good vs evil, dark vs light, so I believe many of the scenes, Lily isn't actually there. But the waiter when they go out talkes to Lily when her food order comes.Lily introduces the 2 guys at the bar and one of them corrects her about his name. The guys ask if the 2 are sisters, one guy goes to the bar with Lily and the other sits with Nina. She explains the story of Swan Lake, he thinks it's tragic, she thinks it's beautiful. When she's hooking up with the guy- I think that's when she's hallucinating that she is dancing, hugging and kissing Lily. So I think Lily initially went out with her, but then at somepoint left, they just blurred that for us and Nina hallucinates about her being with her.

As for the mom, there was a strange undertone - more than just a mother concerned for her child. When the mother is cutting her toe nail on the bed, then she tells Nina, "everything will be better in the morning, it always is ... sweet girl" That just tells me something is happening at night, and when morning comes, it will be OK .When she got back from the black tie evening when she was introduced as the Swan Queen, her mother was petting her hair, and then makes a comment about the director "I guess he wanted you all to himself, (as she begins to stroke Nina from the top of her head down to her low back). Nina says "but why?" The mother says, "I don't blame him", strokes her hair and then sees earings that she seems a little jealous of. The mother proceeds to undress her daughter, even when her daughter tries to stop her by saying, "I can do it". As she is undressing her, she says how "he must have been by your side all night, showing you off" Then she sees the scratches and calls it a disgusting habit as she takes her grown virtually naked daughter into the bathroom to cut her nails. Nina can't even look at her mother during this, especially when her mother is kissing her hand (after clipping her finger).Even in the bathroom Nina has to block the door from intrusion from her mother (with the laundry basket) The whole licking the icing from her mother's finger was very strange too. Her mother was going to throw out the cake because she was insulted, so to make her feel better, when her mother offered her the icing from her finger, she licked it off. Nina is in bed, one morning when she tries to experience herself, and there is her mother, sleeping on the chair (which some would just say is a concerned mother) It is after this moment that when Nina gets the piece of wood, she comes in the apartment,1st she hears her mother sobing, then sees her mother in the painting room, painting a picture of herself, only younger. Nina scurries by, goes in her room, tests to see if the wood would work to keep her door shut.This is a girl in fear Her mother begins calling her name, she puts the wood under her bed, jumps in bed and pretends like she was almost asleep as her mother calls "Nina, sweetie are you ready for me?" and then enters the room with a black lace night gown on, her daughter turns and looks at her, gives a half smile and then looks nervous. When she's in the tub,again trying to experiment with her body, she hallucinates and sees a younger version of (what we can only assume is her mother) above her, leaning over her.Maybe the reason she feels the need to baricade the bathroom door when she is in it. When her and her mother are fixing the ballet shoes, she wants to know if the director has taken any advantage of her, becasue she has the right to be concerned (which would be normal for a mother) but then she wants to see Nina's skin and demands she take off her shirt, Nina forcefully says no, and then the doorbell rings and the mothers face turns toward the door. The mother answers it, She does ask someone what they want, but I couldn't hear the response. Her mother gets completely incensed at the idea that Nina f***ed 2 guys and slaps her across the face, Nina runs in her room, puts the wood door stop, the mother tries to barge in,she tells her mother- "it;s called privacy, I'm not 12 any more!" she then hallucinates about being with Lily, during which point, she sees the face as a younger version of her mother, she gets startled and begins to pull away and then the person calms her down. When the "act" is over, she sees Lily's face and Lily then says, "sweet girl" at which point, the face turns into Nina, who probably wants to kill herself so she invisions herself smoothering her. (maybe for feeling ashamed about whatever just happened). When Nina wakes, she is alone in the room, she hurries to get clothes on, goes to reach for the piece of wood to move away from the door ... but it is already moved - someone was with her during the night. As she leaves, her mother sits in a chair, arms crossed, and doesn't say a word - possibly ashamed about what happened? I think she is so repressed sexualy due to the control the mother places on her It is after the incident that night that when Nina gets home, she throws the music box across the room and gets rid of all her childhood toys- maybe a sign of throwing away the childhood memories and growing into a stronger person ("as the final act is that she tasted her dream, only to have it crushed, her heart wounded, her life force fading, she is not fearful but is at a place of acceptance"). when Nina gets home, (after the hospital incident with Beth) she throws up and then hears voices coming from her mothers painting rm. She looks in and they all seem to be screaming saying "sweet girl" and "mine". She tears them off the wall and her mother shows up and asks whats happening. That night the mother sleeps in the chair and seems concerned for Nina, even putting socks on her hands to stop the scratching. When Nina wants to go, the mother tries to keep her locked up in her room and says, "this role is destroying you". Maybe she didn't like that Nina wasn't the same weak little swan anymore, but becoming the stronger black swan. Who really knows? But there seemed to be a definate strange relationship between mother and daughter- especially with all the the flashes of a younger version of her mothers face over her.

I didnt realize there ARE always mirrors when nina and lily are together, lily even almost shifts into one in the hallway wnen they come home wasted. I think lily is real, but nina envies her so much, lily appears more than shes really there, and ninas own black swan image gets distorted due to her envy. Also at the bar when the guy orders another round he puts up 4 fingers, for 4 people. I think lily does want the part, what dancer wouldnt, but she is at the same time trying to help and destro nina. I dont think she was actually there in the room, but when nina wakes up the stick holding the door has been moved, maybe dark nina, who she often sees herself as lily, due to envy 'leaves' leaving white nina in bed. Multiple personality patients, often vomit and have headaches. But multiple personality, ocd, bipolar and scitz often get mixed up, and considering an actual psychiatrist didnt direct this, the director and writer wanted to confuse us so we would all sit here and discuss. There is NO definite in this film, its rare for any film to have definites. Its here to make our brains hurt and that is what its done....great moviw, watched in theatre by myself and 100 times since. Also I like how nina is in every scene but lily smoking, I think this was nina sneaking, and trying to be more like lily. Good pts everyone!!!

Also I think lily does sleep wth thomas, and theres something strange wth her mother and her, but I really cant say it does seem sexual, but also like she knows her daughters nuts maybe they both are, shared genetics and all. I also think beth is huge part of the envy. Why didnt her mother succeed as a dancer, or is what happen to beth, someone of what happen to her mother. I think the stress put on dancers is a big part of it all. All 4 main female characters blur thru out film, beth, nina, lily,, and the mother

Also I think lily does sleep wth thomas, and theres something strange wth her mother and her, but I really cant say it does seem sexual, but also like she knows her daughters nuts maybe they both are, shared genetics and all. I also think beth is huge part of the envy. Why didnt her mother succeed as a dancer, or is what happen to beth, someone of what happen to her mother. I think the stress put on dancers is a big part of it all. All 4 main female characters blur thru out film, beth, nina, lily,, and the mother. They are all artistic insane, as well as genius. I am stella above, also stephanie. Funny they wouldnt let me post wth stella email again so soon, coisidence? I had to use my two emails and names to post. Stella is the black side and steph is white. Hmmmm ud meet steph at work and stella at the bar for the most part, but when alter egos battle the nights tends to go bad, and I normally end up wakung up with my bf telling me it happend again) xo

I was using my phone, sorry for the double post, i dont know how that happend, the first post by steph shouldnt have sent, i was not done writing as you see in the second post. my phone does what it wants i guess, but it didnt even tell me i posted that, i thought i just kept writing...stupid smart phones =)

As for where I said cant say it being sexual, it shouldsay CAN say it seems sexual, as well as over protective, but are you ready for me? is gross and creepy, and the more i read your posts it seems it was abuse. also, i think lily and thomas sleep together because she became the understudy, and almost danced when nina was "sick", she had to do something to come off the street and get that part. lily trying to help nina is her white side, she really likes nina as a friend, but also wants the part. she coulda given her more drugs and alcohol and knocked her out for days, but instead it seems like she is trying to help her let her black swan out, the difference beetween nina and lily is lily's white swam is not good enough to win over the role. i think good can go to bad much easier than bad can go to good, but in lilys black way she is trying to help nina thinking it will help her with her white side. im pretty sure the majority of the blood is hallucination, and that nina didnt stab beth, seems more like, beth would do anything to make it end. she lost everything, and wanted it just to end. OK thaaaat's all I got. sorry for so many posts, im not great with technology or spelling

Whoever mentioned veronica is so right its her who gets the guy to drop nina and who nina finds sleeping with thomas, shes sleeping wth them all...ew

Whoever mentioned veronica is so right its her who gets the guy to drop nina and who nina finds sleeping with thomas, shes sleeping wth them all...ew

Could it be that Nina NEVER danced the Black Swan performance? I say that because after Nina stabs Lily (or herself, whoever) we see her dance the Black Swan. Of course, she is wearing BLACK. She walks back to her dressing room, feeling proud, passing other dancers. Lily then knocks on the door. When Nina answers and she is flustered, thinking she killed Lily - she is wearing WHITE? Did she ever dance the Black Swan. For someone SOOOO bent on perfection, and having fallen, it seem unlikely she could have sucked it all up and the delivered the performance of a lifetime!

Could it be that Nina NEVER danced the Black Swan performance? I say that because after Nina stabs Lily (or herself, whoever) we see her dance the Black Swan. Of course, she is wearing BLACK. She walks back to her dressing room, feeling proud, passing other dancers. Lily then knocks on the door. When Nina answers and she is flustered, thinking she killed Lily - she is wearing WHITE? Did she ever dance the Black Swan. For someone SOOOO bent on perfection, and having fallen, it seem unlikely she could have sucked it all up and the delivered the performance of a lifetime!

I don't think Nina was sexually abused by her mom. I think the reason why she keeps imagining her mom when she masturbates or thinks about things sexually... Is because her mom is always on her ass and she doesn't have privacy. Think about it, if you're trying to touch yourself and your mom doesn't give you any privacy, wouldn't your mom pop into your head? Nina is freaked out about it of course..thats why she jumps up in every incident. Also, at the end of the movie.. She does stab herself, and I suppose the reason why she didn't bleed to death was because the glass shard was still in. The only reason she did bleed drastically until at the end was because of the movement she was doing. She was moving her abdomen alot where the wound was, which caused it to pour out blood more. Lily is real as well, but that night where Nina and lily get sexual... Was fake and Nina was hallucinating. The mom has a big obsession with Nina because of the portraits of her in her room, she wishes she could become Nina .. Because as said in the movie, the mom gave up her career to have Nina.. That's the classic..... " live your life through your kids"

whether you agree or disagree with her upbringing or opinion, it is her right to express an opinion. Go back to the dark ages with yours

Any man who feels the need to strong arm a 17 year old girl who was mean to him deserves no respect.

I'm pretty sure her "conversation with America...let's chat" thing is a lift from what Larry Hagman's character in "Primary Colors" said when he took over from the deceased GOP front-runner. I'll go back and run it through, just to be sure, right after I do my toenails, solve global warming and ask Rosie O'Donnell out for coffee...

If somebody sucks,'they suck' you might as well say it,"freedom of speech you know.."

She has decided not to write it.

Amazing! - love, love, love! This is definitely one of my favorite setups yet. I recently helped my sister pick out a similar piece and it looks incredible in her home. I'm going to redesign a few areas in my home soon and I'm looking for the perfect chandelier. Any suggestions? I've heard Arteriors has some pretty cool pieces, but I've never purchased anything of theirs so I'm not sure! If you can help point me in the right direction please help me. Thanks!

First i would like to state that i really loved the movie and it is one of the few movies with a mostly female cast where many men i have talked tothought the movie was incredible

One thing i have not seen mentioned is the grayscale they had in the film. It was a huge part of the movie all of the actors wear black gray or white all of the sets and costumes are those colors and it relates to them being in new York. It is supposed to show how living in the city causes things to blend and become indistinguishable from one another. The actors themselves ass supposed to look the same to add to this effect of confusion. It shows how the city can make things blur together it also shows how just living in that environment can cause you to go crazy

First i would like to state that i really loved the movie and it is one of the few movies with a mostly female cast where many men i have talked tothought the movie was incredible

One thing i have not seen mentioned is the grayscale they had in the film. It was a huge part of the movie all of the actors wear black gray or white all of the sets and costumes are those colors and it relates to them being in new York. It is supposed to show how living in the city causes things to blend and become indistinguishable from one another. The actors themselves ass supposed to look the same to add to this effect of confusion. It shows how the city can make things blur together it also shows how just living in that environment can cause you to go crazy

I always thought Soul Train sucked because ALL of the performers Was required to lip sync. My parents utilized to watch Solid Gold and if i was bored I would watch that mess. But, I was thinking Arsenio was funny-ish.

While i look at this show with older eyes, it isn't the dancing which includes me in giggles...it is the fashions. My goodness, we wore some wild and crazy shit a while ago.He kinda reminds me of Ron Jeremy, but...significantly less classy! Besides, it is just marriage! Who inside the hell takes that shit seriously?

I loved this film despite the fact that so much of it is still unclear to me. I do believe that Nina was sexually abused by her mom. There are so many things that point to this being likely. Clearly the mom was far too overprotective. She cuts her daughter's nails when she scratches herself in quite a violent way. The mom knows that Nina is scratching herself due to the stress of having been abused. When the mom cuts Nina, all of a sudden she is apologetic. The mom undresses Nina and talks to her as though she is a little girl. Near the beginning fo the film we hear the mom ask Nina,"Are you ready for me?" Nina feels the need to keep her mother from her bedroom and finds a piece of wood to keep her out. I believe that Nina bites Thomas' lip when he kisses her in his office in the beginning of the film because Nina does not yet view a kiss as anything other than hurtful and abusive.

Lilly never did go to Nina's home. I do think that Lilly and Nina went out together, but Nina likely came home alone. I don't even think Lilly was in the cab with Nina. What is the liklihood Lilly would have seen Nina leave in a club like that, especially given the rush Nina was in to leave? Her mother would have acknowledged Lilly when Nina came home drunk/drugged. It isn't clear to me if the mother assaults Nina that night. Someone was in the room with Nina, as the wood blocking her door is moved. Part of me believes it was her mother but the other part of me thinks Nina brought a guy home, the mom was too afraid to confront him and he left before Nina woke up.

I am still baffled by the ending. I do believe that Nina dies, but I really don't want to.

i have only just watched this film and was soo confussed so reading though these has opened my mind abit...

firstly i did think lilly wasnt real and she was nina black side.. but then when she fought out she was her 2nd the show she ran to the main man and begged him to not let it be her so if she wasnt real surely he would be confussed as to what she was going about...

secondly the sexual abuse alot of people have said about the mother does make sense, i never thought about whilst watching but, the hole lickin icing of her finger and dressing her and being the room while she playing with her self did seem totally weird so maybe she was and nina was using lilly face to block out the fact her own mother was doing that to her.

Marx, der den Brief mißverstanden hatte, gab erst auf einen zweiten

Time for a corona!!!. Hahahahaha. What dumb? fucks to stand there

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